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Showhorse.com Forum · Cutting Horse

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Author Topic : Gentlema's and Woman's Agreement
 Painters
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4/20/2017 12:24:47 PM reply with quote send message to Painters Object to Post   

Ok, I've been thinking (scary I know) but we seem to have three levels of development in Cutting - 1st Appaloosa, 2nd Arab and QH, 3rd Paints and TB.

Now not being critical of anyone, but if someone enters a bunch of Paints/TB in Pro, I can come along and enter one or two QH and clean them out. If I enter a bunch of QH, someone can enter one or two Appys and clean me out. It happens. It's a way to make some cash however it can be discouraging to those working on the less developed breeds.

So, what I'm wondering is if we can divvy up the show days between these groups so that each group defined above is competing with their peers - sort of Monday is for Level 1 (Appys), Tuesday is Level 2, Wednesday is Level 3, Thursday is Level 1, Friday Level 2, Saturday Level 3, and Sunday can be a free-for-all. Any days with 2 or more shows, the additional shows could also be open to all.

Since we have no way to enforce this it has to be an honor system and all of the stables that are participating in cutting would have to agree. All we could do would be to boycott shows where someone was not honoring the system.

What do you all think?
 Adare
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4/21/2017 10:21:28 AM reply with quote send message to Adare Object to Post

I don't do cutting, but seems like an overly complicated idea.
 Painters
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4/21/2017 11:43:28 AM reply with quote send message to Painters Object to Post

I don't think it's that complicated.

Monday shows are for Appaloosa

Tuesday for Arabs and/or QH.

Wednesday it's Paints and/or TB

Thursday shows are for Appaloosa

Friday for Arabs and/or QH.

Saturday it's Paints and/or TB

Sunday is a free-for all

Most days there only is one show it seems, occasionally two - that's the only time I see it getting complicated. It just requires everyone to play with a certain degree of integrity.

What do you see as complications Adare, seriously - if it stands a chance of working we need to know about potential problems so that we can deal with them.

Perhaps we need a Cutting Horse Council (lol)?

There are a number of stables involved in off-breed cutting (meaning at this time mostly not Appaloosa). I've been around long enough to have seen a number of attempts at cutting with other breeds and they all seem to fail, possibly because you can't compete financially with the Appys and thus you can't sell anything either because they are not really competitive with anything else either.
 Adare
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4/21/2017 9:30:09 PM reply with quote send message to Adare Object to Post

Because I don't enter shows daily. I enter them in bulk a month at a time. Doing this suggested process, I'd have to calculate and skip around and I'd be forever entering shows. Like I said, I don't do cutting but if I did I'd not be a participant in bothering with this. Y'all would be boycotting every show... LOL.

Jeffs games have an eye toward realism. In real life, certain breeds trump others. I'm ok with that.
 Painters
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4/22/2017 1:07:48 PM reply with quote send message to Painters Object to Post

I agree with what you say about reality - how 'bout that 3 month gestation and weanlings in WP/EP - even amateur!

Fair enough reason but since I enter Halter, WP, and Cutting, depending on the horse I almost always use the horse page 'Enter Shows'. But oddly enough, you can't enter cutting that way - you can only enter it through the 'Full Schedule' bulk entry.

Actually, Adare it would be fairly easy for you as you only have one breed. All you have to remember is Arabs Tuesday and Friday, and Sunday if you wanted all-breed.

Next look at the schedule filtered for cutting and note that the first show is the 23rd, a Sunday. Actually what I'd do I think is just use a calendar. It would actually be fairly easy I think.

If you had more than one breed you were entering you'd have to be aware of the breed. The enter horse list I believe is alphabetical by name.


 
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4/22/2017 1:24:11 PM reply with quote send message to Object to Post edit post

I think it's a great idea!!! And very doable!!!
It's a fact no other breed stands a chance vs Appys in Cutting Shows!
Just like Paints and TBs can't win when competing vs QHs and Arabs!
Since Cutting isn't broken down into breeds like all the other shows,we can take the initiative and do it ourselves! It's just fair to all players and everyone would have a chance to win!
Adare,I wouldn't worry much if I was you...2 reasons
1-Like you said earlier,you don't do Cutting...yet! Lol
2-You have an awesome stable,filled with winning horses,no matter what show you enter!!!
I'm all for it! Count me in!
There's that question of....who decides what breeds/what days
I'll say the top breed/Cutting stables should make that decision and the rest of us,come here,look at what breed/what day and enter our horses accordingly! Example
Thonsen Paints--Appys
Cache Creek/ Riverbend/Gaylan--QHs/Arabs
Tranquility Acres/Painters/Cotton Park--Paints/TBs
Something like that...they come in here,talk about what days are best for each breed,how is it going to rotate and Badabin!
AZF
 Riverbend Farm
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4/22/2017 3:31:13 PM reply with quote send message to Riverbend Farm Object to Post

I feel a poll coming on lol.
 Adare
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4/22/2017 7:33:04 PM reply with quote send message to Adare Object to Post

Rankings are deceiving. Only looks like that because all the big stables forget to do all their entries.
 Arizona Falls
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4/26/2017 3:29:17 AM reply with quote send message to Arizona Falls Object to Post

Rankings are deceiving as far as earnings go,but it also shows you who comes in once a month,a week,a day and playing the game,buying,entering shows,selling in Auctions...
So,this idea is good for the game and everyone in it...maybe a few of us would have to sacrifice and adapt to a different style of playing for the greater good of the game...
I hope everyone votes in that pool and the idea becomes more than just an idea and it can actually be put in place!!!
AZF
 Tranquility Acres
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4/27/2017 11:53:23 AM reply with quote send message to Tranquility Acres Object to Post

I would be glad to have a day per breed, Painters is right, the development is further along with some breeds, and the frustration to catch up is madness...I have been doing cutting paints for some time now, and the highest score I have I believe is a 221. No against a 290+ Appy, what does that get me? Squat lol. It will take me a great deal of time to catch up to the other breeds this way. I think seperate days are a great idea, unless Jeff wants to seperate the breeds themselves and maybe having one show a week for all the breeds combined, but I don't see that happening.
 Painters
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4/28/2017 9:41:06 PM reply with quote send message to Painters Object to Post

Here's my list of participating cutting stables.

Green River Stables
GaylanStudio1
Thomsen Paints
Arizona Falls
Cache Creek
Pinetree Ranch
Painters
Riverbend Farm
Tranquility Acres
Tawcaw farms

Anyone know of anyone I missed? I want to know if we are all on board with this and then we can try it out for a month.

May 1st is a Monday - Appaloosa day.
May 2nd Arabs and QH.
May 3rd TB and Paints

If I have everyone in the list I'll send out messages this weekend.
May 4th Appaloosa.
May 5th Arabs and QH.
May 6th TB and Paints

May 7th is for anyone.

Is everyone ok with this for a couple of weeks at least? We can revise, or continue, or cancel the whole idea then if it proves unwieldy or too many non-compliant members.
 Riverbend Farm
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4/29/2017 5:21:12 PM reply with quote send message to Riverbend Farm Object to Post

Ok, I'm on board with this!

I entered all my Arabs that were less than 10 on the 2nd 5th 7th 9th and 12th.
 Arizona Falls Paints
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4/29/2017 7:22:19 PM reply with quote send message to Arizona Falls Paints Object to Post

I also entered all my cutters in their respective dates!
Good luck to all and don't forget to have fun!!!!!
AZF
 Arizona Falls Paints
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4/29/2017 7:38:28 PM reply with quote send message to Arizona Falls Paints Object to Post

Hey all,I would like to add something to this whole thing...
Since we're doing this to be fair to all players,there's some days of the month where there's more than 1 Cutting Show.
This extra shows should be given to Appys stables,so that their earnings don't suffer to bad...I mean,now with a schedule by breeds,this stables like Thomsen Paints,Riverbend and such will not be earning the same because their Appys can't enter shows every day...
What do you guys think?
AZF
 Tranquility Acres
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4/29/2017 9:30:16 PM reply with quote send message to Tranquility Acres Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

On board and entering those days! I assume this won't bother any amateur entries if we continue to enter them regardless of day? Perhaps the other stables have a backup discipline to fall back on for earnings? I have my western guys to keep going while waiting on the cutters.

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Last edited by Tranquility Acres on 4/29/2017 9:33:54 PM
 Arizona Falls Paints
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4/30/2017 10:17:24 AM reply with quote send message to Arizona Falls Paints Object to Post

Thank you Riverbend,thank you Tranq!
I've send messages to a couple of stables to check out schedule posted by Painters here above...
All stables that signed up,are the ones I currently see in Cutting Shows every day...even new players...
I also don't see a problem with amateurs entries and breeds,although I think we should keep amateurs entries -3 years old and not enter a 3+ years old in amateur just to avoid the entry fee...I mean,that's the point of all of this...lol
AZF
 Painters
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4/30/2017 1:00:09 PM reply with quote send message to Painters Object to Post

I agree that the amateur - what should we call it, division - should be exempt from this program.

I think we all use amateur to "train" and evaluate our young stock although I don't care if someone wants to enter older horses. I have some older horses that have never been tested.

I hope we can keep this going and perhaps we'll see an increase in participation in the event and maybe even an increase in membership and overall participation.

Who knows, if this works, maybe we can do the same with EP/WP in the future . . .
 Tranquility Acres
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4/30/2017 1:34:44 PM reply with quote send message to Tranquility Acres Object to Post

For the Ammy classes I keep my cutters there until they turn 3, and the WP there until they turn 2. I can't see parading a 0 age pro WP horse around in the real world, so I won't here either laugh :D
 Cache Creek
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4/30/2017 2:04:47 PM reply with quote send message to Cache Creek Object to Post

Tranquil, my philosophy too.

Anyway, I just entered my top 8 QH cutters in with Riverbend Arabs for the 2nd 5th 9th and 12th I think it was.

Plus I entered all my baby cuters (they'll be 1-ers) in amateur from the 1st or 2nd to the 7th or so to get them graded.

I'll try to do my Paints tomorrow for the 3rd on on.
 Thomsen Paints
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4/30/2017 7:00:52 PM reply with quote send message to Thomsen Paints Object to Post

What about jackpot shows? That's were the money is at. I would hate that a certain breed or breeds would always miss them. Can the jackpot shows be a free for all and whoever enters enters?
 
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5/1/2017 9:32:19 AM reply with quote send message to Object to Post edit post

Thompson, yes, what about them - all those that have entry fees greater than $50? I didn't forget about them but I wasn't sure how to handle them.

At the moment, just by default they fall under the same schedule, and for me that's ok as I rarely use them anyway. I didn't want to make things too complicated with a lot of exceptions. I looked down the list and thought that those bigger $ shows were fairly well distributed that each breed would get one every month or two.

That's certainly open for discussion. How does everyone else feel? I wouldn't want to change it just yet - I think it's best to see how good the compliance is for this first month.

We could say that the schedule as set out only applies to the $50 shows without complicating things significantly. That however would then leave only the Appaloosas standing much of a chance of breaking even. I'm mostly ok with that but how does everyone else feel.

The other issue I think we need to bear in mind is education of new folks. I would suggest that perhaps when we sell cutting bred horses to someone new we should make them aware of the agreement and ask for their compliance.

We all must recognize the fragility of this agreement. There is no system enforcement and I don't think we can expect any changes from Admin any time soon. Keeping it as simple as possible, I think, increases the likelihood of compliance.

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